For this I will use a character that is used fairly often in the Marine codex Vulkan He'Stan .
This guy is just ridiculous in my opinion and I wish Lysander made as much sense to the army as this guy does.
I'm by no means complaining about him as I think he's a good character that makes sense to his army.
The problem I have is that in comparison Lysander makes little sense.
You pretty much all know what Vulkan does but for the purpose of this I shall list what he brings, by himself he has a 2+ save and a 3+ Invuln save, a gauntlet mounted heavy flamer and a master crafted relic blade. Pretty impressive. Then there is more he also makes all Thunder Hammers Master Crafted and makes all flamers, heavy flamers, meltas and multi meltas twin linked. I think this makes him a no brainer really for alot of Marine players and I do understand that. He comes in at a 190 points which I think is pretty fair maybe a little cheap.
Now we get to Lysander, he is a rather odd ball character I feel. I think this is partly due to him still having bolter drill which he had as a Sergeant upgrade back in 3rd Edition (I still have the codex). He comes in with a 2+ save and a 3+ Invuln, a master crafted Thunder Hammer with hits being resolved at strength 10 and add +1 to vehicle damage charts, he is also Eternal Warrior. Which in my mind means use him to get up close and beat face, not as easy of a choice as that, his special rules are bolster defenses ( makes sense, it's fluffy ), Stubborn which makes sense and Bolter Drill this is where it doesn't make much sense. I think they need to re-think a little on this and try to figure out a more fitting replacement for Bolter Drill or drop his cost and remove it.
He's 200 points which is in my opinion a little ridiculous for what little he does. The problem I think is that it makes sense to put him with a Sternguard Squad for the re-rolls but then he's super beat stick is wasted so your other option is Assault Termintors but it doesn't seem like he is needed really as they have enough power behind them and your paying the equivalent of another squad for him. The other option I think is with shooty Terminators for the re-rolls with a gating Librarian which seems pretty cool but still expensive.
I'd really like to here your opinion. With 6th Edition apparently coming next year this is the one thing I hope they change haha. I don't care about anything except for them to give me a character that makes more sense or is cheaper.
EDIT: Once again something from the comments has prompted me to add to this post. I have also been reminded that a regular captain outfitted in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is only 30 points cheaper than Lysander. That is just ridiculous. I think that makes me eat my words a little in saying he maybe over costed when in comparison that is just silly.
Thanks.
Warflake Out
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Posts
He is only 30 points more than a normal captain in termi armor with a thunderhammer, and storm shield. For that you get eternal warrior, +1 Wound, Stubborn, +2 Str, +1 Damage Chart, Bolter Drill, and Bolster Defenses. That is a bargain for 30 points. So I think the real problem is the the stock captain and his upgrades are over priced.
ReplyDeleteOnce again really good point mate, I didn't even consider regular captains. I just never think of them as a valid choice because as you say there points are pretty silly. Unless you want an extremely cheap but pointless HQ that you could take a Librarian that is more useful.
ReplyDeleteI consider Lysander's points to just be worth it for his hitting power and resiliency. He massively increases the assault ability of any squad he's attached to and increases their durability be being able to take any hits on his storm shield.
ReplyDeleteBolter Drill and Bolster Defenses are both useful in certain circumstances but they're essentially gravy. If you set up your army to use them, great. If not and Lysander just slaughters his way through a few enemy squads, he's still worth his points.
On the subject of Vulkan, he does way too much for his points. I could deal with his army buffs if he wasn't so solid in assault as well.
Bolter drill needs to go. It's too odd. I'd make him make terminators scoring (similar to Kantor) or give all thunderhammers +1 on the damage chart. He's Captain of the first company and a living legend after all.
ReplyDeleteI just ran across this article and as I have been deciding to use one or both of these guys I find it to be an interesting article. I would like to point out a couple things that I have noticed while test playing lists with these guys and running Lysander in an Apoc game. They are both good in combat but for different reasons. You can throw Lysander at a unit of TH/SS Terminators and he will do alright against them, but Vulkan will die after taking 1 wound. If you throw Lysander at Hormagaunts he will get eaten for brunch before he can take a breath, but Vulkan will flame a good number of them to death before he charges and attacks at the same time.
ReplyDeleteYou also can't discount Stubborn when it comes to a turning point in the battle. You need your Tac marines to stay on an objective and stubborn will help. Putting Lysander with Sternguard not only greatly increases their killing power but it will also redirect alot of charging units that might otherwise head their way. and you can always break him off to destroy a squad on his own. I like the fact that in my Apoc Game Lysander went blow for blow with an ork stompa and would have won if the game continued.